Host Intro (Gene Kim)

Okay, next up is Dr. André Martin. I've introduced him in many ways over the years. For those of you who don't know, in the State of DevOps research, one of the markers of organizational performance was the employee Net Promoter Score. That question got introduced into the instrument, I think in 2017, in a series of text message exchanges with Dr. André Martin.

He is the author of the amazing book Wrong Fit, Right Fit. He is a former Chief Learning Officer for Nike, Target, and Mars Corporation. We were talking about Project Aristotle earlier, and he actually took over that program when he was the VP of People Development at Google. So he has very much been exposed to this community.

I'll just mention one more thing before I ask André to introduce himself. One of the focus areas of the Enterprise Technology Leadership summit going forward is around career development. This is based on my observation that many technology leaders feel that they might be hitting a ceiling, that they aren't being able to achieve some of their own goals and aspirations. This is one of a series of sessions we'll be doing over the next two days exploring that, to bring their expertise to help us as a community better achieve community goals.

André, with that, I'm so delighted you're here. Can you introduce yourself and tell us what you've been working on these days?

André Martin

Sure. Gene, it's great to be here. Hello, everyone. I'm an organizational psychologist by training, recent author of the new book Wrong Fit, Right Fit. I spent many years, probably 20-plus, as the Chief Talent Officer at Google, Nike, Mars Incorporated, and Target, and now I'm an independent consultant. I'm an operating advisor for a number of technology-based SaaS firms and in some growth equity spaces. And then, really, I'm just helping to make work less work, Gene. That's what I've been doing these days.

Gene Kim

So good. By the way, I found your book absolutely fantastic. The book is many things, but it also forces you to really examine your own personal goals, so that work isn't like work.

The question that we're exploring is: what can technology leaders do to keep their careers on track? We had initially proposed a role play, but you actually had a far better idea of what would be meaningful. Can you start? What might be a better way to examine a technology leader's career?

André Martin

I think we're going to do a couple things today, Gene. First, I want to set up the question we're going to talk about, and then spend a little bit of time with the audience talking about what executives are actually looking at when they're looking at the talent that they're going to choose for higher and higher levels within the company.

I wish it was only good work, but unfortunately that's not all it takes. Then we're just going to open up the space to you and I to have a conversation, maybe get some questions from the audience if we can, around: what are the questions you're struggling with the most when you think about advancing your career?

So you want to just jump in?

Gene Kim

Full speed ahead. Let's go.

André Martin

All right, let's do it.

Let me start with this: a lot of us would love to believe that a job done well is all it takes. Actually, what's true is that for a career to work out over the long term, it's got to be curated, it's got to be cared for, and it's got to be constructed over time.

This little visual is one of my favorites. It talks about this idea of career progression. What we wish we had were careers that just go like this: with every good piece of work, I get a promotion. The next piece of work, I get another promotion. I just move, move, move all the way up the organization. But the truth is, it's more like the visual on the right: our careers are winding and curving, and they go up and down. Sometimes it just feels dizzying as we try to understand, how do I create a better career for myself?

One of the questions I hear technology leaders ask, and leaders in general ask, is: why does it feel like everyone else is progressing when I work as hard as they do?

I want to unpack that a little bit, Gene, and then we can have a conversation about what that means. The way I thought we'd do that is to talk about this: I've spent my career working with top executives doing succession and talent work. As I look back on that work, here's what I'll tell you: executives don't just look at output alone. There are a few other factors that are on their mind that influence who gets chosen for different positions. I'll run through these real quick, and then we can get to the Q&A.

The first one is: when you think about what executives look for, they hire a narrative, not just a person. They look for people who can tell a story about the future that is compelling and aligned with what they believe. Often when we're in the company already, and we've been working for a boss that's probably been there for a long time, unfortunately we become a part of their narrative. The assumption is, because I worked for Eugene for 15 years, I am your narrative. I believe the same things you believe in. When executives are looking for a change, of course they might not see me as someone who holds a different idea of what the future could be.

Secondly, you have to embody the archetype of the company. The archetype of the company of Nike is very different than Mars, is very different than Google, is very different than Target, is very different than GM. When you think about progressing your career, if you don't embody the archetype, if you don't act and show up with the same sensibilities as successful executives in the company, you'll probably always be passed over for someone who does.

The third one is you have to have strong ties to the voices that are in the executive's head. Think about that for a second: executives have eyes and ears out in the company all the time, and they often have pretty small trusted networks. People who tend to be part of those trusted networks tend to have a leg up in their careers.

The fourth one is you need external street cred, or reputation. One of the things that's always interesting to me is when executives or HR go out to the external market to recruit, often what they hear from recruiters is: hey, you have this unbelievable talent who's already in your company. We know them. They're highly sought after. They're doing some of the best work in the world. By having an external reputation, it actually helps you be seen as someone who's a thought leader and progressive for the future.

Last but not least, you need a die-on-the-sword advocate. You need someone who's in those talent conversations on the executive team, so when the moment comes up and we're talking about who's the next technology leader we're going to invest in, someone in that room is thinking of you.

I know a lot of these might be discouraging to folks, but I was hoping we could present the reality of what executives use as they think about who's going to progress through their careers up and through the organization.

That brings me to this question Gene and I were playing around with over the weekend: if we had to ask the audience, or you could represent the audience, what is the question that you are struggling with right now as a technology leader when it comes to your career? We thought we could do a little bit of coaching for a few minutes about that, and then you and I can have a deeper conversation.

Gene Kim

Yeah, absolutely. I put all of the questions I posed to you over the weekend in the Slack channel. I'm asking people to vote, and we'll let those percolate to the top.

In the meantime, here's a question that I had. You spent time at Google, and that is a technology company. It's a software company, and they valued technology talent. When I asked you, on a scale of one to 10, to what degree do you think non-technology firms, like organizations represented here across all industry verticals, will eventually recognize or can appreciate technical talent? One was no chance to be appreciated in technology, you have to do what many did, which is go to the tech giants. Ten is no, it's absolutely possible. You actually said 10 with a star. Can you talk a little bit about why it's a 10, and why do you put a star by it, and how?

André Martin

Here's what I would say. I think technology leaders can rise in those non-technical firms. Now, it's easier in places like Google because those companies are typically run by technologists who appreciate engineering talent. If you don't have a technology background, you're sort of in the opposite place.

But in these other firms, there are three things I would say. The first one is, like I said before, you have to represent the archetype. You have to be able to show that you have the same sensibilities as the company.

Secondly, technology is becoming a more and more central part to sustainable growth for these companies. You look at Target, you look at Nike: the amount of technology transformations that they've gone through in the last 10 years means that executives are thinking a lot more about technology in strategic ways, whereas before they thought about it through the lens of infrastructure.

Third, if you want to have a career in those places, you need to be more of a T-shaped leader. You need to have depth in technology, but you need to be able to show that you are as good at running a P&L as you are coding the next app that we need for our infrastructure or our company.

Those are a few things that say it's possible, but again, you have to do a little bit harder work than maybe if you were in one of the big tech firms.

Gene Kim

That's fascinating. We're just in the process of creating our programming objectives for next year, and topics like this are going to be a third of them because I think they're just so important.

One of the questions I'm going to put to the top, even though it's shy of being the top voted on: in situations like that, where you're in a non-technology firm, where do you find a die-on-the-sword advocate when people on the top haven't come from a software or technology background?

André Martin

There are a few ways you find them. First and foremost, there's always an executive out there that's struggling with technology: how to use it personally, how to enact it in their function, how to leverage it better to drive more value to the customer.

I tell people: be the person that's in their email, on their phone, saying, "Hey, I'm a technology expert. What do you need? And how can I help?" Because I have to tell you, everyone's a little scared that they don't know enough. If there's a technologist out there who's willing to sit down and be a mentor for them about how to utilize this, I don't know an exec that's not going to take you up on that.

Gene Kim

That's awesome. In fact, Luke Reddick from Target shared similar stories with me about those unmet needs, frustrations, wants, aspirations, goals, dreams that are just almost there, if it weren't for this somehow needing technology to be a part of that. Fantastic.

One might ask a technology leader: if I know where I want to go, how do I know if I'm actually making progress? What are some concrete ways that you can get an accurate sense of, do I have a shot at going where I need to go?

André Martin

First and foremost, I would separate progression up and through a company from progression as broadening the portfolio of skills, experiences, and challenges I've faced.

One of the things that I did in my career early on is I went out and said: who are the top 10 best CLOs or chiefs of talent out there in the world? I studied their LinkedIns. I studied what were all the experiences they had that got them to the point where they are considered a renowned expert in their field. Then literally, I used that as my map for how many of those do I have, at what depth do I have them, and where can I take my next year of work and start building out some of those places where I might not have exactly what I need to be the one who's up for the job when the next one comes up.

That's really important: find the technologists that you most want to be like when you grow up, study the experiences, challenges, places, and types of roles they've had, and really try to use your current situation to maximize your ability to gain those experiences, because then you're more marketable for more jobs.

Gene Kim

Can you give us some advice in terms of two ways to interpret that? One is I'm going to look internally inside the current organization. The other is I'm going to look externally across the entire industry. Where should one initially focus? I know a lot depends on the person and constraints, but what are some guidelines you would give?

André Martin

I love the question, Gene. One of the things in the book that I was really passionate about was this idea of a great career being constructed by knowing what the purpose of your career is. Are you of company, are you of cause, or are you of craft?

If you're of company, if you're going to stay at the place that you want to be because you love it so much, then yes, you have to look at the leaders that have progressed and really try to map out a career that makes sense. Frankly, your social network becomes really important.

If you're of craft, if you want to be this renowned expert in the field, the truth is you probably have to go to a few companies to be able to experience technology in a variety of different ways. You get to see all the different ways that technology is being applied, all the different ways it can be run. If you stay in one company, you only know one way, so you're never going to be able to reach your potential.

If you're of cause, you're saying, "I want to make sure every company in the world is a technology company." Then you just go to where the energy is. You go toward the people and places where the best work is happening.

So I think it's first stepping back and saying, what kind of career do I want to build?

Are you still with me, Gene?

Gene Kim

Yep, I am. I was like, is that him or me? Keep going. Thank you.

André Martin

Last but not least, I know we're going to run on time. It's like 9:05. I do want to say: the best people I know that have really built great careers, the one thing they universally do is they are constantly reassessing where they are and what they need to do next.

We have to own our own careers. Nobody's going to just look at how much good work you're producing, how much output you're creating, and actually progress your career for you. I think we often want organizations to do our career management for us. The truth is, you have to own your own career. No one else is going to care as much about your career as you do.

Gene Kim

That's fantastic. Now I'm going to show the clock. I want to make sure that we have three minutes at the end to share your amazing sum-up advice.

One question I would love to put there is: what questions can one be asking to get a sense for, is there a limit to how high I can go here at the organization that I'm in? How high is it? I know it's not just about being promoted, but to what degree can one measure what the Venn diagram looks like about what the company wants versus what I want? To what degree is there any overlap at all?

André Martin

One of the things I encourage every talent to do is you have to have that conversation every time you have a performance conversation with your boss. If the company can't tell you exactly where you're headed, exactly what your next role is, exactly what your overall career progression potential is, then I'd question whether or not you're in the right place for yourself.

Most places know. Most bosses are pretty clear. Often the reason we don't find out is that we never ask the question. Make sure you ask the question, and also make sure you're ready for the answer. The answer might be: "Hey, you're pretty much where you're going to be because we've hired from the outside, we have a CTO that we like, we love where you are, and you're doing a great job for us." That might be dissatisfying, but I'd rather know the truth than sit and make up narratives or stories about what might be true.

Gene Kim

Super. In fact, we're going to be modeling some of these role plays over the next two days as well.

André, can you share some strategies that we can all take away in terms of how we can better achieve some of our career objectives?

André Martin

First and foremost, you have to do a lot more hard work around who you are, what experiences you've had, and what you're designing for. What are you trying to solve with your career in the next year, two years, five years? We don't often step back enough and do that.

Secondly, you've got to have really honest conversations with the leaders in your function and your boss about where they see you today, where they see you potentially being next year, and where they see the top end of your career being in this company.

Third, you also have to think about what you want over the next 10 years. A lot of people are happy with a job that they can do well. The drawback of moving jobs is that it gets harder, the expectations are higher, and success is that much less likely. You have to be ready for that because you might hit a point where you've overstepped your capability and then your life is upside down. I've seen that happen a lot.

You might want to progress fast, but I always tell people: a career is not a sprint. You want slow progress over time so you don't get outpaced by your job.

Last but not least, do more work to make sure people know both what you've done and how you see the future of the work you could do. If you're really clear about where you want to go and what you want to do, often the organization is going to meet you there.

Gene Kim

Awesome. André, we had talked over the weekend, and there's a pretty exciting offer and potential of what we could be doing over the next year. Tell us about that and the help you're looking for.

André Martin

There are a couple things. If you want to find me, you can look at the first three bullets here. I have a couple ways you can interact.

One that I think might help folks in this particular situation is a newsletter, mondaymatters.substack.com. It's a place where every Monday I give really practical advice to make your work week better and also progress your career.

Number four is the important one, Gene. As you know, as the annual conference moves to include more leadership work, one of the things we want to do is start doing a research study of what really drives a successful career for a technology leader. I'm looking to talk to people about: what are you actually struggling with? Where do you find careers hard? What skills do you wish you had that you don't have? We're probably going to do some surveying with the community here pretty shortly, but a few early conversations would help us get clear about the questions. If you want to be part of those early conversations, help shape some of that research, reach out to me on email. I'd love to have the conversation.

Gene Kim

Fantastic. Jeff, let's get his email address into the Slack channel. If I could wave a magic wand based on our discussions, André, it would be: let's get some problem analysis collected. This could lead to surveys. This could lead to a cross-population study just like we did with the State of DevOps research. I would love to see some amazing findings: here are the best-known ways of how technology leaders can succeed both to achieve and help their organizations win, but also in terms of their careers as well. Did I capture that accurately, André?

André Martin

I think accurately enough for today.

Gene Kim

Very good. Thank you so much. André, thank you so much for all the teachings that you've given us in your amazing book. This will be one of many interactions that we will have between now and the conference in Vegas one year from now.

André Martin

I look forward to it, Gene. Have a great rest of the conference. Thanks, everybody.

Gene Kim

Thank you, Dr. Martin.