Panel: Inclusive Excellence and the Importance of Mentoring

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:00:13.820] Well, welcome everybody to our panel. I'll be your moderator for today. My name's Jay Goosby-Smith, and I am Assistant Provost for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at The Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina, where I also serve as a faculty member in management. And today's panelists are extraordinary, each in her own right, and so I will have each of you briefly introduce yourself, tell us where you are and what you do. So I'll start with Diamond Lee.

Diamond Lee

[00:00:45.940] Hi, everyone. My name is Diamond Lee. I am based in the Arlington, Virginia DC area. I am a software developer and senior consultant at Excella, a technology consulting company.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:00:59.460] Thank you. Shreya Chatterjee.

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:01:02.980] Hi, I'm Shreya. I'm a junior at UCLA. I'm studying computer science and linguistics, and I'm hoping to go into product management after I graduate.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:01:11.760] Thank you. Next, we'll have Courtney Kissler, who will unmute. Thank you.

Courtney Kissler

[00:01:17.300] Thank you. I'm excited to be here. My name's Courtney Kissler. I currently work at Nike in global technology and in lovely Portland, Oregon.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:01:28.620] Nice. Next, we'll have Jennifer Hansen.

Jennifer Hansen

[00:01:33.520] Hi, I'm Jennifer Hansen. I work at Capital One and lead the product teams for our internal delivery platforms. Like Courtney, I'm excited about our session today.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:01:47.320] Thank you. Next, we'll have Nazia Ali.

Nazia Ali

[00:01:51.060] Hi, everyone. So nice to be here. My name is Nazia Ali, and I lead enterprise technology enablement at Cox Automotive, and based in the lovely Atlanta, Georgia.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:02:01.840] All right. And finally, we'll have Amber Amos.

Amber Amos

[00:02:06.540] Hi, everyone. My name is Amber Amos. I am a senior at Virginia Tech. I am a Maryland Hokie. And I am studying computer science with a minor in cybersecurity.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:02:18.160] Thank you. And so I guess we'll have Nazia kick us off. So how do you define excellence? This panel is all about excellence. How do you define it?

Nazia Ali

[00:02:29.820] So first off, I think excellence is a very personal definition. So it's different for different people, and I think it's important to recognize that. Excellence is not what somebody else is doing. It's about what your dreams are, what your goals are, and what you want to really go after in your life and in your career. So for me, excellence has always been about really aiming high and removing feelings of self-doubt- Mm-hmm ... and then working really, really hard to achieve those goals. And oftentimes, of course, that hard work has involved really just kind of sitting in my discomfort and being okay being uncomfortable. So I like to joke about this a little bit with my husband these days because it's the minute that I feel like I'm getting comfortable, is when it's really time to challenge myself again. Mm-hmm.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:03:18.600] Absolutely. And like you say, I couldn't agree more. Excellence is contextual to who the person is, and excellence also changes through different stages of life because what's excellence in one stage, I'm here to say, as excellence could change when we're at different stages of life. One of the things that we often think about when we're pursuing excellence is that we'll hit some type of obstacles, and sometimes we'll hit something that we think is a failure. Courtney, my next question's going to go to you. Have you ever experienced a failure that when you look back on it in retrospect, it had a silver lining? Or if you experienced a failure, what did you do, and what did it enable you to do?

Courtney Kissler

[00:04:05.640] Yeah. Great question. So I have a story from when I was early in career. So I had joined a startup, and I was an engineer there. And I had accountability for setting up kind of our Unix infrastructure, non-production environments. And I was just at my desk doing my thing, and I did a command that was, for those of you who are in a Unix operating system, that essentially was a recursive removal of files from a directory. And all of a sudden, I look around me and all these heads are popping up in the cubes next to me, and I was on a production system. And I basically took down the company, and we weren't operating for over a day. We had to rebuild a bunch of systems. And so you can imagine how devastated I felt, and I was nervous. And there's a couple things I learned. One, build resilience into the work you're doing. So I learned about automation and putting in some additional checks. I also learned, and I think this is what's important when we talk about some of the work that's been done in the DevOps community, my boss was very supportive. I was not blamed for the issue. And when we talk about having a generative culture and how important that is and people feeling safe, I would say what I learned, and I really didn't know it in the moment other than I was very happy that I still was working, is how to be a leader and support when somebody does make a mistake. Because we're all going to do that. And so for me it was: How can I learn as quickly as possible? How can I move forward? And then now, fast-forward as a leader, how can I create an environment where it is okay and encouraged for people to fail and learn?

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:06:20.696] I think that's so important because I heard a similar story from a friend of mine who worked in the Air Force, and he almost single-handedly tipped over a jet. And how the leader handles it, like you say, how the leader handles it is really one of those critical incidents because as we then become leaders, we remember those times and it keeps us humble. I'm going to ask Jennifer this same question. Has there been a time that you've experienced a failure, and if so, what did you learn from it, or did it have a silver lining in it?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:06:58.876] As I reflect back, I am sure I've had more than one, what we consider a failure today in definitions. But for me, I think I try to think about it differently. I try to look at it and conceive it to be a challenge. What could I have done differently? What can I learn and grow from the experience? Mm-hmm. And part of what I didn't want these events to do is hold me back. I wanted to build a sense of fearlessness, but also think about the risk and the impact and planning better. And as a leader today, I do think I am very focused on how can we create that same culture. Agile is awesome. It encourages you to fail fast, right? Mm-hmm. And to learn and iterate. And when you promote that culture of a blameless postmortem, you learn and you innovate and get to the next level of excellence. So I think for me, there isn't a failure. It's the lack of being willing to try that can hold you back. So how do we do this- Mm-hmm ... and learn from it?

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:08:23.236] I love that term, a blameless postmortem. So when we go back and look at it and analyze it to see how things actually went, let's just analyze it. Let's see what went well, let's see what went poorly, what could've been done differently, but without the blaming. So one of the things that I do, I'm a scholar and I study inclusion and inclusive environments, and one of the things that I've had a lot of people tell me, similar to what you said, Jennifer, and to what Courtney said, was that when you make a mistake, that's one of those critical moments when you really find out how inclusive the culture is. Is inclusion important, Jennifer? Have you found that to be important in your career?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:09:07.096] Yes. I think it's one of the fundamental components to empowerment. When you feel included, you're willing to collaborate, offer a different perspective, and you build the best solution. If you don't have that seat at the table, it kind of has a demoralizing impact on you. So I think we should always acknowledge people bring the best ideas when they feel part of the journey. Mm-hmm. And it's a very important cultural aspect to empowerment and building the best solution. So having a seat- And I- ... at the table is important.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:09:54.996] Yeah. That's so important because no software development project consists of one person. Exactly. There are people from all different backgrounds, specifically in a DevOps environment. You've got the development folks, the operation folks, the people doing other things. Speaking of inclusion, Diamond, is there a time when you felt particularly included?

Diamond Lee

[00:10:19.356] Yeah, definitely. Kind of piggybacking off of that given a seat at the table, I had just started on a new project. I mentioned I'm a consultant, so I bounce around from project to project. Mm-hmm. It was my first day, or perhaps my second, and the team was meeting about the topic of microservices. They were trying to decide if their monolith should be split up into different services, and I had experience from my previous project on the pros, the cons, best practices, since that was the architectural background that I came from. And the tech lead began the meeting, kind of laid out what he knew, and I was immediately able to jump in and kind of give my input as far as what I had learned on my previous project. And it was very validating because the tech lead, who clearly knew exactly what he was talking about, kind of fell to the background and let me, in my second day on this project, step up and lead this meeting. It was also inclusive and validating because all of the developers, who were all men aside from one other junior woman developer, gave me their undivided attention, asked me questions, and really made me feel like I could lead this meeting. The client was actually in on this meeting, and afterward she pulled me aside and really emphasized that she was impressed with the knowledge I had, what I was bringing to the table, and the tech lead in this particular meeting did the same. So that was definitely one time where I felt that I was given, as Jennifer said, a seat at the table and could really bring my knowledge and feel empowered as far as being a contributor to what the project was and the end goal of our team was.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:12:01.260] And I think that a lot of times, people will hear about inclusion and they'll think, "Oh, that's just some warm and fuzzy stuff, giving people chocolate chip cookies and warm milk." But no, it has direct impact on performance because if you do have a seat at the table, and it's an environment where people will allow you to speak and allow you to contribute, that's how the whole project gets better, and then it further empowers you, and it just creates a virtuous cycle. So that's a wonderful example. Nazia, what about you? Have you had a time when you felt particularly included at work?

Nazia Ali

[00:12:38.520] As I was listening to Diamond's story, I was trying to think back to a specific story that I could point out which really created that feeling of inclusion. And really, as I think back and reflect on my career, I think moments of inclusion or time when I really felt like I belonged, it really came out of consistency. So it was being in an environment where there was consistently a desire to solicit my opinion, consistency with my voice being heard. And so it was that sort of ongoing feeling of inclusion, and that ongoing feeling of having a seat at the table and really being an important part of the organization, an important part about what we were doing, which created that sense of belonging versus a specific event. And I think that's so important. You're absolutely right. Inclusion is not a fluffy thing about getting a cookie or a prize and feeling like you're a part of a group. It's really much deeper than that. It goes much deeper than that into the culture of an organization and a feeling that you create for every team member, and making sure that you are meeting their specific needs and desires as to how to feel included. So for me, it really comes down to that. It's about being able to create that consistent environment that really fosters that sense of belonging. That's been especially important to me.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:14:04.680] And I think part of the consistency that makes such a difference, one of the things I've found is that when we have the ability to trust the environments that we're in, it's not just a one-shot deal. It's not just that this manager's doing something out of the ordinary at this meeting, but they're going to actually carry it through. And so, being able to know that I'm always going to have a seat at the table if I have something valid to say, I'm always going to be listened to, is very important. Anybody else happen to have a time of when they felt really included, if they're willing to share with us? What about classes? I remember when I was in school, they would have us do these derivations of all these formulas on the board, and I remember one time my professor, this is a long time ago, but he handed me the chalk. And to understand the dynamics, I was at Spelman College, but all of our calculus and computer science and physics classes were at Morehouse. So Spelman was all female, Morehouse was all male. And so I was the only one in the class, and so the professor asked me to go up to the board and do the derivation. And so I did it, and fortunately, I did it right. And I really felt included because everybody in the class was kind of like, "Oh, okay. She can hold her own. She's smart." So, what about mentoring? One of the things that Courtney talked about was the fact that when she had accidentally erased those different files, her boss didn't completely flip out. I want to know, Shreya, what do you think about mentoring? Do you think mentoring is important? And if so, why? Or if not, why not?

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:15:58.860] Yeah. So I definitely think mentoring is really important. As someone who's getting started in my career, it's so easy to feel lost or kind of have so many questions about what the right path is. And I think mentoring is a great way to find people who have been on that path before and who can give you wisdom and teach you about how best to continue your career.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:16:20.860] Mm-hmm. A lot of times, especially when we're in school, we're so busy learning all the things we need to learn, but I think the biggest thing that I learned when I started work, I worked for a company nobody remembers anymore, unless you have white hair like me. It was called Digital Equipment Corporation, and it was in New England. And my first day of work, I realized, okay, everything I learned in school was teaching me how to learn on the job. It didn't literally teach me how to do the job. It taught me how to learn about how to do the job. Amber, what are your thoughts on mentoring? Is it important? If so, why? Or if not, why not?

Amber Amos

[00:17:01.400] I'm going to agree with Shreya here that it is super important. I think having a mentor and someone who's navigated the space before you, is able to give you advice, and encourage you in places that they've experienced. So one of my stories that I came, in freshman year, time management was super hard for me. There were so many different things to do when you came into freshman year, between the clubs, all the classes that I had to worry about, and things like that. I had a living, learning community mentor. So when anything got overwhelming, I always went to her and asked her what did she do to help with time management during her freshman year, and how did she juggle all of these things? So having that ability to just talk to someone when you're struggling or having issues and just need some advice is super important throughout any part of your life and career.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:17:58.000] Absolutely. Now, I'm curious: how have you all, Jennifer and Nazia and Courtney, and I guess I'll call on you in that order, how have you managed to find mentors during your career? So not necessarily who they are, but how have you managed to find them, either formally or informally, and what have they given you?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:18:22.040] I wanted to first add that I think mentorship is awesome, right? It's not just for the person that you're mentoring, but you learn and grow from that interaction model. So it becomes not something that you just think about, "Hey, I'm paying this forward." Mm-hmm. But it becomes very fulfilling. And I did want to add, throughout my career, I've tried to mentor folks, as well as look for good mentors. Mm-hmm. And some of the rationale I've tried to use is there are certain traits that I am trying to grow into, and I want to aspire to get there. And at times, I can see that demonstrated with ease by others. So that becomes an element like leadership. I want to be a leader like that person. How can I learn that skill set so flawlessly that I can make folks that work and report to me feel inspired each day? How can I find that element of leadership? So those are the things that I've tried to look for, and also encourage folks that I mentor is think about a couple of aspects that you're trying to grow in, not everything at one time. And then let's work through that, practice it out, try different strategies, see what works for you. So that's been my approach. That's a great point. Because just like

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:19:51.920] we were saying that what excellence is very contextual. What you need in a mentor changes- Right ... as you change career stage. Because initially in your career, you're trying to figure out how to be excellent at what it is you're doing, but then later as you start to have ambitions or, "How do I go from an individual contributor to management?" Or things like that. Nazia, how have you experienced mentoring, either mentoring others or being mentored, either formally or informally in your career?

Nazia Ali

[00:20:26.040] Yeah. So mentorship has been, I would agree with others, it's been a very vital aspect of my own growth and development, and it's something that I actively enjoy doing for others as well, having those mentor-mentee relationships. For me, one of the most important things about mentorship has been sort of having that safe space, that confidentiality, that trusted relationship with someone who you can feel very comfortable getting feedback from and feel very comfortable sharing some of your concerns and your thoughts and your questions. And I'll share, very early on in my career. So I was fresh out of college and just sort of charging ahead and I probably had a lot of blind spots. I still have blind spots. And then I was in a mentoring relationship with a leader in my organization, and she had a very candid conversation with me one day and offered some very constructive feedback. And it was things that I'd never heard before. I didn't even realize I was doing those things. And I will always remember that conversation with her, because it was such a pivotal learning moment in my career early on. And then I've continued to have those important learning moments because of these mentoring relationships. So I think the confidentiality factor was really important, because I felt very safe with her. When she gave me that feedback, I was just able to take it for what it is and absorb it and react to it, versus worrying about what this means. And so it really is similar to some of the things that Courtney was talking about before. That safety and creating that safe environment is so critical for enabling growth and learning in folks. So that's really important. And then to answer your earlier question about how you look for mentors, I thought I would comment on that a little bit. I think for myself, it's been important to find, or most valuable to find those mentoring relationships within the organization that I work in or touch, because they see me in action. And so they can provide me some very pragmatic feedback that I can react to right away and make changes or continue to do things that I'm doing really well. So that's typically where I've gone to find mentoring relationships for myself.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:22:52.680] I think it's really important, too, to find those people who will give you the true critical feedback. Because a lot of times you can be in a situation where someone's mentoring you, and they just want to be nice, and they just want to be supportive. But sometimes you need to be pulled by the coattail and say, "Hey, don't do that," or, "Do this differently," or, "Try this approach instead of that approach." So it's so important to find people who will give us that honest feedback. Courtney, how have you handled mentoring or being mentored in your career, either formally or informally?

Courtney Kissler

[00:23:31.440] Yeah. So a lot of the same themes. I do truly believe that it's a two-way mentorship. I've learned so much when I've been in those scenarios. I also have a story from early in leadership. And my immediate boss and boss's boss were basically just like, "Keep doing what you're doing. It's great. Keep doing what you're doing." And I'm like, "There has to be something. I want to learn." And so I watched another leader in the organization at the time who was just really good at being explicit, and he would share feedback and I thought, "Well, I'm going to set up some time with him." And I went in and I said, "I'm really looking for some constructive feedback." And similar to Nazia's story, it was like, "Stop doing this. Stop doing this. Stop doing this." And it hit me really hard. Some of it were things that I had no idea that I was doing. I went home that night. I was actually reflecting on, am I right for leadership? And what I ended up learning was, well, first and foremost, he remained a mentor to me for the next decade. And similar to what Nazia said, he saw me in action. And because he wasn't in my direct line of leadership, there was a safety there. He wasn't writing my reviews, but he could give me that feedback and then also observe and give me encouragement along the way. But it was candid, which was hard to hear, but I learned to seek it out. I want someone who's going to give me reality, and I've also learned over time that sometimes it's good to just observe actions as an indicator of how you are showing up as a leader or an individual. Because you can sometimes tell by how people are operating around you if you need to seek out feedback or find another mentor. And I'm often looking for people who, A, I can learn from, B, might have opposing viewpoints. So if I believe passionately in a certain direction and someone else is coming from a very different perspective, I'll surround myself with people who have a very different point of view so I can optimize my learning. So I definitely believe in mentoring. I believe I learn a lot from others as well, and I'm often looking for attributes of a mentor, someone who is going to definitely give me candid, actionable feedback.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:26:33.060] Absolutely. It's, excuse me. It's so very important to have mentors who know different things than you know and who have had different experiences than you've had. Because I've seen some organizations, they will do mentoring programs and they try to match the mentor to the person. And my most powerful mentors have been of different generations, they've been of different genders, they've been of different ages, different nationalities. Because like Courtney was saying, you want to surround yourself with people who think differently from you, because you really won't learn if you're just kind of living in an echo chamber and everybody knows exactly what you know. You really don't grow, and you really don't learn. For Shreya and then I think Courtney, and then I'll go on back over to Diamond. With respect to being a mentor, have you ever had a chance to be a mentor to someone? And what was that like?

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:27:54.240] I'm actually not sure if I've had an official mentor role before.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:28:01.000] It doesn't have to be official.

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:28:02.130] So yeah, I don't think-

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:28:02.230] It might be another sibling or it could be a cousin, a niece, nephew.

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:28:08.920] Yeah, definitely. I think it's just generally important to pay it forward with, like everyone was saying. And so I always try to help out even freshmen who are coming into UCLA, answering their questions or helping them any way that they can. I think that's really important. I also wanted to kind of piggyback on what Nazia and Courtney were saying about this safe space. I just finished up a software internship this past summer, and I had a mentor who, like Courtney was saying, was not in my line of work at all, was a different department, a different team. And that was so helpful because it created this space where I could ask any questions without any reservations. I could say anything I needed to, and that would never negatively impact me. It only allowed me this opportunity to grow personally and professionally. So I definitely agree. I just wanted to acknowledge that point about safe spaces.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:29:01.800] And I'm going to ask Amber as well. Have you ever had a chance to mentor others, either freshmen or people new to your major or in any situation? And if so, what's that been like?

Amber Amos

[00:29:14.720] Yeah. I was actually so inspired by my mentor that I had talked about previously that I actually continued to stay in my living learning community and become a mentor to the next incoming freshman group. So that was actually a really great experience for me. I got to learn a lot about leading them. I think one of the most important parts about being a mentor is being able to listen to what they need and figure out how I can then help them with that and help them grow in their own journeys. And piggybacking off of pretty much everybody here with the safe space, I think that was so important. Creating that safe space allowed them to come to me when they were having issues or challenges that they needed advice on. So I wanted to be that person that they could rely on during their freshman year if they ever had any trouble.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:30:10.116] And Diamond, before I go to the next question, I wanted to hear from you about mentoring. Have you been a mentor? Have you mentored others, and what has that been like?

Diamond Lee

[00:30:20.696] Yeah. So I have been fortunate to both be a mentee and a mentor. I'm grateful for both of those opportunities. As far as me in the mentor role, I have been officially and unofficially a mentor for people. This last year, I'm only in my second year of my actual career, my professional career after college. And in my first year, I was given the opportunity at my firm to be the supervisor of one of our summer associates, which is what we call our interns for the summer, which was a very rewarding experience. I was able to mentor, yes, a college student who had come from Virginia Tech, like myself, from the same internship program that I had done, and we worked together the entire summer. I was able to help her with coding best practices as well as get dinner or go to happy hour after work to show her what it was to be a young professional in the DMV area and in the tech world in general. So that is an example of an official mentor role I've played. And then I have some unofficial roles where on my various contracts and projects, there have been people onboarding, and I've helped them gear up with best practices for our team, the culture of the company that we work for, if they were new to Excella. So yeah, I've been in both roles, and they have both been very rewarding opportunities and experiences.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:31:51.396] One of the things I think is so important to realize is that a lot of times we think that mentor, mentee, we think that different parts of our career, "Oh, I'll be a mentor then." But as you can see, everyone has the capability of mentoring and everyone has mentored. And so one of the things I find surprising, like if someone starts asking me questions or I start becoming an informal mentor, it's one of the most humbling things that I've ever experienced because a lot of times people will be looking to you for answers that you didn't know you had. So it's so gratifying to both have a mentor, but to be a mentor and, like Jennifer was saying, you get so much from the mentoring relationship. I'm going to go to Jennifer since I mentioned you. One of the things I know that you've talked about was when we talked about failures, you said you've just got to look at this in a different way. And so it sounds like you're really good with overcoming challenges. So how do you challenge yourself, and why do you challenge yourself?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:33:05.656] Well, you only live once, so you've got to be open to trying to do the best you can while you can. And part of the excitement that comes from trying new stuff is just amazing, right? You push yourself, whether you're a runner and you're trying to get the best PR, or whether you're trying to do really well in your career path, or you're trying to be the best mom. So each of these elements are there to help you grow and get better. So for me, I like to set goals. I try not to do it on Jan 1, because I feel like I'm going to set myself up for failure. So I want to really be thoughtful, start in December, think about where do I want to be? What does it look like in five years' time? Do I want to do the same role, or do I want to be that National Geographic reporter? How do I want to evolve myself? And then I try to break it down into some smaller milestones and challenges with the expectation that I might hit some and I might not hit some, and then I might revisit and move a different path. So I try to set myself little goals to test through, is this the path I want to continue to explore? And what am I getting out of it? So for me, it's setting achievable smaller milestones as you kind of hone in on this is what I want. But it's being willing to flare, think outside the box, and challenge yourself.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:34:52.156] One of the things that I'm hearing a lot from you all is one of the things you've learned that's made you be so successful is your ability to manage yourself. So to know what motivates you. So for example, you said, "I don't want to do it on January 1st because that's going to add all this expectation, so I'm going to do it in December." Or, "When I look for these mentors, I'm going to look for mentors who are very direct." And so the self-management piece seems to have a lot to do with this because most of the times when you go into your career, you have to self-manage yourself because suddenly there's no one that's telling you to do this or telling you to do that. And if you just want to stay at this particular job level, you can just stay here for 20 years. And so I'm just so impressed by the panel from that perspective. So I'm going to go to Shreya and Amber for this question, and I'm going to ask you, when you think of yourself down the road, it's 10, 15 years from now, what do you want to make sure that you still remember? So I'll go with Amber first and then Shreya. What do you want to tell your 40-year-old self to still remember?

Amber Amos

[00:36:13.116] Pretty much everything that we've touched on during this panel discussion. I think failure is okay. Mistakes are okay. You will learn from them, grow from them. Having someone to discuss those failures with, so having a mentor helping you grow as well. And always embracing diversity in any environment you go into. Again, as we said earlier, that diversity allows more ideas. And so repeating that of echo chamber, you don't want an echo chamber. You want to hear from other people's different experiences so you can learn more. So pretty much summing up everything that is on the panel is pretty much what I would want to tell myself down the line, to always remember these important things.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:37:01.636] Thank you. Shreya, what about you? What will you tell your 40-year-old self to remember?

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:37:10.856] So something that I have learned through college and through doing the internship is really an idea of work-life balance, and I really want to keep that with me. So I think I'm someone who-- Well, first of all, in college, there's just always work to be done. And I'm someone that, if I'm given a week-long project or something, I'm like, "Oh, let me finish it. Let me spend three days completely working on it, and then I'll be done." And I found that that's not the best approach, and it's so much better, just mentally and just from a health perspective, to work on it a certain amount each day and then go hang out with a friend and grab dinner or something. So I really want to keep this idea of a balance between my work and my professional life and having fun and the personal side of it, too.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:37:58.896] That's so important because anybody who makes it through these technical careers and makes it through technical education is very driven, has high expectations, almost to the point of perfectionism, to want to do everything, excel at everything. And you're right. You can get very burned out if you don't give yourself little times of respite or recreation. And it's all about a whole life. Kind of like Jennifer said, "I want to do as much as I can while I'm here," but you could prolong your being here by not just running yourself into the ground. This next question I'm going to pose to Diamond and then to Courtney. Who you are today, your today self, what would you look back and tell your college self if you could? So I'll start with Diamond. What would you tell college Diamond, freshman Diamond?

Diamond Lee

[00:38:57.536] I'm laughing a little at this question because I could spend an entire hour telling my college self things, and I'm only two years out. So, this is quite a heavy question. But definitely there are two things that I think I would pick if I could. And it would, one, be to go to college to become a lifelong learner, learn how to learn. And then two, everyone feels imposter syndrome at some point in their college career or their professional career, so that's natural and okay. And going back to that first point to kind of elaborate, you go to college and you take classes. You take math and data and whatever. We're all in technology. It's hard. But I feel like the best lessons that I learned while I was there were from people and the people I surrounded myself with, the professors, the students who mentored me. So I would definitely go back and reiterate to myself that you are here to learn from experience as well as in the classroom. So really value those conversations that you have at the career fair or with your professor during office hours. And maybe don't stress yourself out so much about making the perfect grade on that test because ultimately, grades are important, but the network that you build and the life lessons you learned are even more important. And then that second point of everyone feels imposter syndrome, I think that's so important. I also am a Hokie, so I went to Virginia Tech, and I remember my first two years there, I filled out three transfer applications because I was like, "Ugh, I'm not cut out for this. I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough." And I was really feeling like I didn't belong, and it took people encouraging me to say like, "Hey, you got this. You're smart enough. You're good enough." And I made it through. I graduated, and then I went on to my professional career, and I was surrounded by these brilliant developers, and it was certainly intimidating. So I, again, felt like an imposter, and now I'm reflecting and I feel so validated and included. And so at the end of the day, it's just important to understand that no one really knows what they're doing for the first time that they do anything. You kind of have to ease into it. So, it's okay to feel that imposter syndrome. It means you're pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, and you're doing something right. So those are definitely the two things I would tell my college self.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:41:29.096] I love that you brought up imposter syndrome because we only learn from being in different situations and trying out new things, and that's just part of it. But that's one of those things that they don't teach us in school. I remember, so DEC, Digital Equipment Corporation, they were recruiting at my college, and I walked up to the recruiter and I said, "I'm just a freshman, but I'm really interested in your company." And he said, "Let me tell you something." He said, "Don't ever say, 'I'm just a freshman.'" He said, "Nobody here is going to know what they're doing when they get to this summer internship." And I maintained the relationship with him until he passed away earlier this year. So if you count back from 1983 to 2020. He was a person who was just so instrumental, and that imposter syndrome, it is so real, and every time you reach a new level, you feel it all over again. Every time. And so it's just part of it. That's an excellent lesson. Courtney, what would your today self tell freshman Courtney?

Courtney Kissler

[00:42:43.620] Some very similar answers to what Diamond said. I wish that I had focused more on what I'll call learning agility. Because I had this expectation of myself and I had this bar, and if I didn't have everything buttoned up and perfect, I felt like I failed. And what I know now is that's okay. That's actually part of the learning process. But when I was in college and when I started college, I was going to be an accounting major, and I switched to computer science my freshman year. And back then, we didn't call it imposter syndrome, but I felt that from the day I switched into computer science. I was one of two women in my graduating class, and I never felt like I was really where I needed to be. And now, knowing how important it is to have a growth mindset, be open. I call it my learning loop. Like when I have something that doesn't go well, how do I acknowledge, learn, move forward, and try to do that in as quick of a loop as possible. And then just figure out how to give yourself some grace. Because I think we often have these high expectations of ourselves, and to your point, most people who go into this industry are driven. And having that balance, I love, Shreya, that you said that, because honestly, early on in my career, I had none. And it was almost a badge of honor. You worked at startups, and you worked three days in a row to get something out to your customer, and everybody was so excited. And I wish that I had learned early to have that balance because careers are long. So learning how to incorporate that, I'll call it rest and recovery, but over time, I've learned that now, and I feel like I show up better when I have the balance. When I'm running, and I've got my daughters, and I've got other things going on in my life that contribute to how I engage at work. And the more balance I have, I think the more just authentic I am when I come to work. So, I didn't think of that until you said it, but I do feel like that is an important thing that I wish I had learned back when I was in college and early in career.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:45:41.480] Absolutely, and I think that balance has a lot to do with boundaries as well. Oftentimes, we aren't taught to set the boundaries, and so the boundaries just keep getting encroached and encroached and encroached. And then hopefully it's not a crisis point that makes you set the boundaries, but learning, kind of like Shreya said, the work/life balance and what Courtney said, when am I going to stop? Because you have a lot of corporate cultures that glorify the overwork culture, and I think it's called karoshi in Japan. It's actually a syndrome of overwork. People die from overwork. You can look up the term. What about freshman Nazia and freshman Jennifer? What would you tell freshman Nazia?

Nazia Ali

[00:46:25.940] So what I would tell freshman Nazia is just appreciate your accomplishments. I'm sure it's the same for everybody who's on this panel. We are smart, we are driven, we're very ambitious. So it's not necessarily about slowing down. You don't have to slow down if you don't want to. Go as fast as you want to, but appreciate what you're accomplishing. Because I think that certainly I had a tendency to accomplish something big, then set the bar higher, and not really reflect or appreciate and internalize what I had just achieved. And before you know it, all these years have passed in your career and you've done a lot. And I think there's just something to be said to just take a moment to appreciate your achievements, appreciate your accomplishments, recognize what you're able to do. If nothing else, it does a lot for your mind, your heart, your feelings about yourself, which are all very important things. So that's what I would tell freshman Nazia, who's moving 100 miles an hour, that just recognize what you're doing because it's a big deal. It's a big deal for your own health and psychic perspective, but it's also a big deal for assessing and determining what your value is. Because as you just keep moving and moving and moving and moving, a lot of times, as you accomplish these different things, your valuation and what you bring to the table actually is increasing. So with those big accomplishments, with that skill acquisition, with that different product context or industry context, your value's actually going up, too.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:48:14.140] We'll close out here with freshman Jennifer. What would you tell freshman Jennifer?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:48:21.836] I think I would have to agree that most of the panelists have said it already. How do you slow down? How do you not be so hard on yourself at the time in your pursuit of excellence? Does it always have to be that A-plus? How do you stop and just enjoy that time of your life that will never come back again? So how do you create balance right from then, hang out, and celebrate successes along the way? That is something that I try and do today, because we tend to push ourselves on large efforts, right? They're pretty intense. Most of them will run a few months before which you'll get the outcome you want. But along the way, how can we celebrate that with the team, energize everyone back into the journey, and do a little bit of that for ourselves as well? So I think they're all really great call-outs today. And Shreya, the fact that you're thinking about balance now, wow. That's amazing. I think that's what life should be about, and sometimes we lose that sense of balance.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:49:44.636] Well, we are coming to a time for the close on our panel, and I just want to express just such appreciation. I think that if I could've talked to myself as a young computer science major, I think given what I've learned today, I probably would've told myself to stay in the career a little longer and hang in there and work harder to try to find mentors, because it really is a journey, as all of you all have said at some point. We're all on different points of the journey, but during that journey, we've got to appreciate the mileposts that we pass and make sure we have some people to walk along with us. And so as we close, I'm going to go to each of you and just see if you have any final thoughts. So I'll start with Diamond. Any final thoughts as we close out the panel?

Diamond Lee

[00:50:47.636] Yeah. First of all, I would just like to say thank you to everyone on the panel. This has been a very insightful and great discussion that I'm very happy to be a part of. But ultimately, for anyone watching this, everything said here is absolutely true. Mentorship is super important. Seek it out where you can. And imposter syndrome is also going to happen in your career. It's part of an excellent career. Continue to push yourself out of your comfort zone. It means that you are advancing and doing something right. So thank you all.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:51:19.076] Thank you, Diamond. Shreya, final words.

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:51:24.376] Yeah. I want to also say thank you to all of the panelists here for sharing their experiences. I feel like I've learned a lot and will take a lot of this with me as I progress through my life and my career. So, thank you.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:51:36.616] Courtney.

Courtney Kissler

[00:51:39.436] Yeah. Also same. I want to thank all the panelists, and thanks, Dr. Smith, for moderating. One thing I really appreciate about the DevOps community is we all learn from each other, and now I feel like I just grew my community again with this experience. And so I just want to say I appreciate getting to spend time with all of you. And I would just say, again, close with always be learning. Lifelong learning is important, and I think that that is the thing that is the unlock for a lot of growth opportunity. So, thank you.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:52:23.136] Thank you so much, Courtney, for being here. Jennifer, final words, final thoughts.

Jennifer Hansen

[00:52:29.186] It's tough to follow Courtney. I love the DevOps community, and I do think this particular conference really is a sharing and growing opportunity and people contribute, which is awesome. So one of the things that I learned today from the panel, it is so important to be able to voice your concerns, to look for that mentorship, to collaborate, build trust, and all these things that are really important to each one of us are important to others in the org. So if we can just reflect and share in someone else's journey and think about how we can nurture them, I think in the end it'll come back in tenfold ways.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:53:23.256] Thank you. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Nazia.

Nazia Ali

[00:53:28.376] So just echoing what everyone's already said, I really enjoyed being a part of this panel. I feel like I learned so much. So many of the things that all of you said really resonated with me, and it was just a really wonderful experience. And so again, just really appreciate the opportunity to learn and share with one another, and contribute to this wonderful learning community.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:53:55.016] Thank you, Nazia. Amber.

Amber Amos

[00:53:59.136] How to follow up all of you? I'd like to thank you guys for inviting me to the panel. Thank you to all of the panelists for sharing your stories. Definitely inspired me and I've learned a lot from all of you and your testimonies. Thank you everyone out there for listening, and I hope that our words truly resonated with you and will carry with you throughout your careers.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:54:21.866] And as a last final question that Gene told me to make sure to find out: What kind of help are you looking for? So Amber, you're a senior. What kind of help are you looking for?

Amber Amos

[00:54:38.604] I think one of the biggest decisions right now that I'm trying to make is deciding where I want to pursue my career. There's a big technology environment on the West Coast, but I live on the East Coast. So just, I guess, advice on how you decide where you want to end up. I know in your career you can move around and things like that, but just starting out, what words of advice, I guess, help you decide where you want to go?

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:55:10.684] Excellent. I'm going to go to Shreya, and then I'm going to circle around a last time. Shreya, what are you looking for help on?

Shreya Chatterjee

[00:55:18.124] Yeah. So as I mentioned, I want to go into product management, so I guess I would be looking for any advice on how to enter that field or anything about that career path, or just any advice around that.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:55:34.544] Thank you. Nazia, what kind of help are you looking for?

Nazia Ali

[00:55:38.124] So, I'm looking to learn. So, we're doing a lot of great things right now at Cox Automotive around advancing our DevOps practices, and so the more I can learn from what's going on at other companies and what everyone else is working on, that's what I'm really hoping to achieve. So it's really all about the learning experience for me.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:56:02.304] Thank you. I'm going to jump up to Courtney. Courtney, what are you looking for help with?

Courtney Kissler

[00:56:07.764] Similar to what Nazia said, I'm always looking to learn as well and learning from others. Also, I think people are at the center of DevOps. It's all about people. It's all about surrounding yourself with great people. So have to say, always looking to find amazing talent and to help us transform, and so that's something that I'm always looking for help with as well, is to make sure that we're getting great people to join our transformation.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:56:49.264] Thank you. Diamond, what are you looking for help with?

Diamond Lee

[00:56:54.364] I am looking to continue to network, expand the people that I know in the technology industry, both so that I can grow, I know that there are certainly places and areas I can improve in, but also looking to network with people who may be attempting to infiltrate this industry. I'd like to share my experiences and what I've learned and what has helped me. So definitely networking and growth.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:57:18.864] And Jennifer, what are you looking for help with?

Jennifer Hansen

[00:57:23.224] I want to be part of this awesome community for longer than two to three days. I want to find a way that I can stay engaged and share and learn from each other. I'm passionate about trying to compare what can we do that could make things even better. So I think sharing experiences and being part of the community for year-round would be awesome.

Dr. J. Goosby Smith

[00:57:55.344] One of the things that I'm looking for help with, so I think I shared a little at the beginning, that I do work regarding inclusion. So I've done studies and written books and articles and things like that. And this is my second time being around the DevOps community, and I'd really like to explore the connections between inclusion and DevOps, because just by its name, development and operations, there's a natural kind of symbiotic relationship that exists between those two things, and I think that that is so important to valuing and leveraging diversity in organizations, and also with creating inclusive environments, because you kind of have to listen to someone who knows something different from you and take guidance from someone who knows something that you don't know. So I think that's what I'm looking for. Well, finally, I promise you there are no more questions, and I just want to express my appreciation for meeting all of you and for you jumping into dialogue and sharing so much, and I hope that the audience has gotten as much out of it as I have. So thank you all very, very much. Have a good conference.